Curse

Lortext · Oct 22, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

I don't understand what is competitive about syncing or lucking into a good team and then pub stomping random bad teams.

plenethor · Oct 22, 2010, 09:54 PM // 21:54

The entire argument against the current CB by "pvpers" falls apart when you look at it. If you want organised pvp where skill + organisation matter and it's not just killing pve mobs who do the same thing all the time as some people are so fond of saying, you got it, HA and GvG are both organised pvp venues for people who want that.

The main complaint from people is that they can't sync or stay in one team, right? But if PvEr's are so bad at the game (and plenty of them are) then how is that a test of skill, basically you're grinding level 20 NM mobs some of whom have no understanding of tactics or the victory conditions and terrible AI and in CBs they can't even have original or unexpected builds you need to counter, you know exactly what you're fighting. So while you can claim that you prefer tests of skill everything demanded by the OP disproves that. Seems more like certain people want something easier than even NM prophecies.

I guess it must be difficult for the "pvpers" who are used to using a build off PvX, and relying on superior organisation to make up for a lack of skill to take part in competitive PvP but that's hardly Anet's fault. I've lost more CBs due to the loudest people not having any idea beyond one flawed inflexible tactic that they can't and won't adapt than I have from general incompetence. As for lucky to get 3 consecutive victories, I don't know if you have played much of the new CB but I've had 2-3 consecutive victories a few times and so far got as high as 8 and I haven't played more than a few hours.

I don't really get why you want to be able to sync or continue with the same team since it's hardly going to create a challenge you just keep playing til one of the few other sync or winning team knocks you off. Surely good pvpers must have better ways of gaining Balth. faction and if you don't have a PvE character who can grind ToT bags faster than CBs will get you why would you even want them since the stuff they drop is for PvE titles and boosts? The only reason I can see is to grind gamer title points which isn't exactly a respected pvp title since most of it comes from minigames. The only answer that makes sense is that you're a title hoarder who wants another title to contribute to his GWAMM and doesn't want to have to pay through the nose for one of the others, which would also explain why you seem to be having so much trouble winnning without a big advantage like syncing or waiting for a team that can carry you. I could be wrong but that's the only thing that makes sense from what you've said.

tl;dr "pvpers" claim to like skill based gameplay, actually asking for faceroll victories for title points.

Edit. Guy above said everthing I said in one line, ah well

mage767 · Oct 22, 2010, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Where is red resign when you need it?

Resigning still works nicely in CB, but there are too many ppl who don't know what the hell it means.

Feathermoore Rep · Oct 22, 2010, 10:12 PM // 22:12

I know its the internet and alll....but damnn are people on here some huge bigots. Read the damn posts before you post a reply to the arguement. Oh wait...your lazy bigots....

QQ out of the way

-------------------------------------------------------

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...4&postcount=92
^Killed u man's post.

Read it. It makes sense if you bother to try and understand it.

Inherently CB is a form of pvp by nature. It involves 10 people playing against each other?! Just because its a holiday arena that shows up once a year, doesn't make it any less of a pvp arena.

Just because its supposed to be a fun game doesn't mean it can't be competitive. Look at RBR. Thats HUGELY competitive. They even gave us snowball ATs. In any given game, someone will desire to be absurdly competitive and good at it.

You don't see game designers after the fact go, ohh wait good teams are winning too much. We should eliminate consistent teams. Uh lolwut?? Team game no longer revolves around teams...hhmm somethings wrong with that. Oh i know the fact that teams no longer matter!?

Just because you cover up the fact that bad kids got steamrolled by teams who even had a remote sense of what to do, doesn't change the fact that bad kids still suck. Now the bad kids just don't see it any more. They get blinded by the fact they are winning occasionally, and can't blame it on their team because it changes every time.

If this debate is going to evolve from "oh they finally fixed syncing" (because they really didn't - they gave you more smoke n mirrors) to "mini-games shouldn't be competitive", then ANET needs to make a team arena version of CB. No ATs don't count. If the mini-games are going to turn into a purely pve, happy-go-lucky, crap-fest of players running in circles in costumes screaming because they've never had so much fun. Give them their own arena. I don't want to play with those people. Its perfectly acceptable to be that way.

Its not acceptable however to force those that want to play a more competitive game to play in a social environment. Its also not acceptable to force them to play at extremely high end competitive. I don't want to have to join a guild, just so I can attempt to play ATs once a day.

This is one area in which the GW system fails. In order to introduce this you have to make entirely new arenas just to accompany the different playlists.
In other games, you could make private servers, custom games, different playlists, etc. In GW, you are forced to play with what Anet gives you.

But if Anet is going to switch to we love casual gamers (because they make them more money - its truth), at least cater to those competitive, and even hardcore players.

Neglecting a good portion of your player base, just to make the game more casual-gamer friendly is not good management or good business.

Silverblad3 · Oct 22, 2010, 10:15 PM // 22:15

I love how none of the PVErs complained about being face rolled against good teams, now all of sudden because they need to be carried they shout out your elitist, get the hell out of the forum, why? Because your not being taken seriously, your casual players who really dont care.

The most amazing fun I have had was playing a in long consecutive string of matches last year (not synced) and we beat synced teams and players. The team was amazing, full of talent and players who were not on vent but knew how to actually play in a tactical situation. Now this is gone, totally.

What was wrong with that? Tell me?

None of the players yelled at other players, hurl abuse at the defeated and other teams even synced ones were giving us creds. What was wrong with that?

Why is it PVEers care so much about a format they will only play a few hours in the holiday anyway?

It is the PVP community who steps up and takes part actively in this format, and for those who do not think it is serious, nor is PvE, so why do you bother making comments here that really PvP players care about? Your not taken seriously anyway. And thats how you want it right?

Honestly. Both sides of the community can enjoy this, but Anet as usual stepped up to the mark and f***** it up again.

As a game developer your not going to be taken too seriously either.

Silver

Lortext · Oct 22, 2010, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Costume battles were not designed as a serious format for competitive play. It's essentially a casual seasonal pvp format. If it was a format that involved premade organized teams or kept skill tracking metrics (ELO, truskill, etc) then we could try to have a serious talk about how Costume battle is competitive.

The system does not intentionally pit your randomly decent team against other randomly decent teams or sync teams of the same skill level.

I see a lot of people bashing "PvE" players in these threads. When someone steps into RA, Costume Ball, or Dragon Arena they're playing a PvP game type. This makes them PvP players just like you even if they don't take it as seriously as you do. They are a part of your community.

Lanier · Oct 22, 2010, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

No, not at all, that's why PvE exists. The intire point about competitive
PvP is to be thrilling and action.

I concider the intire battle isles to be Competitive PvP, including holiday events.

My point was that there can and should be competitive and casual PvP formats. Those, like yourself, can stick to the competitive formats and those PvPers who just want to have fun in addition to those PvEers who like to PvP from time to time can play the casual formats.

fowlero · Oct 22, 2010, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kydd

PVP claims to want evenly matched competitive games and this is giving you more even matches more often so what if you can't "bond" with your team. Sounds to me like the fun you got is when you got a nice team (syncing or not) and roll over people.

The larger complaint isn't that you cannot sync, but that now even if you chance on a good team that you cannot then build some basic coordination with them (much like what happens in RA).

However now obviously people are chucked in randomly each time and it's a complete runabout.

This doesn't stop the fun, however it does detract from a lot of players fun who take the arena a bit more seriously than the average participant. Plus since district merges and with so many people playing syncing would be much much less of a problem (hypothetically).

P.S. STOP RESETTING MY SKILL ORDER

Ellix Cantero · Oct 22, 2010, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Is the crying this bad within the actual matches or just on the forums?

Celestina · Oct 22, 2010, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellix Cantero

Is the crying this bad within the actual matches or just on the forums?

I've yet to see any complaining in the matches I've been in.

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 22, 2010, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by plenethor

The entire argument against the current CB by "pvpers" falls apart when you look at it. If you want organised pvp where skill + organisation matter and it's not just killing pve mobs who do the same thing all the time as some people are so fond of saying, you got it, HA and GvG are both organised pvp venues for people who want that.

Sure, there is HA and gvg. But you have to understand that these are hard to get into and require consistent playing and a lot of dedication. Being 8-man arenas you need to be in an active guild or have a lot of friends on your flist. You can't have too many people in the guild either or they will be frustrated by not getting to play, so every time someone leaves for whatever reason(school, work, dies, gets bored etc) you need to recruit to replace that player. In a competitive environment like HA or gvg you also need 8 like-minded people, that means having more or less the same ambitions, skill level and attitude. I could write a lot more about problems like these, my point is they're not easily accessible formats.

A huge problem with pvp today is that there is no middle ground from pve or low end pvp to high end pvp. Well there is AB I suppose. But both TA and CB could have been excellent stepping stones for people trying out pvp and possibly progressing into higher end formats. There are a lot more middle or low end pvp'ers than there are high end pvp'ers. There's a big potential for bridging the gap between the polarities. I just don't get why you want to take that away by dragging CB down into the mud.

Quote:

The main complaint from people is that they can't sync or stay in one team, right?

Stop repeating this false accusation. There's not a single post in this thread by anyone complaining about not being able to sync.

Quote:

I guess it must be difficult for the "pvpers" who are used to using a build off PvX, and relying on superior organisation to make up for a lack of skill to take part in competitive PvP but that's hardly Anet's fault. I've lost more CBs due to the loudest people not having any idea beyond one flawed inflexible tactic that they can't and won't adapt than I have from general incompetence. As for lucky to get 3 consecutive victories, I don't know if you have played much of the new CB but I've had 2-3 consecutive victories a few times and so far got as high as 8 and I haven't played more than a few hours.

There is something totally wrong with your picture of a pvp'er. People who are loud in CB are not necessarily a typical pvp'er. And having an inflexible tactic and being unable to adapt is more a definition of a pve'er than a pvp'er if you ask me. When I speak so highly of CBs potential for tactical play I mean just that option for adaptation and making quick decisions not having a stale tactic. You got it all backwards. But congrats on your impressive streaks.

Quote:

I don't really get why you want to be able to sync or continue with the same team since it's hardly going to create a challenge you just keep playing til one of the few other sync or winning team knocks you off.

Again the sync argument. No one complains about not being able to sync. As for the challenge you're right, having bad allies is more of a challenge than having good allies. But seriously a pvp'er also wants to have fun, carrying teams in every round gets boring. Don't you miss the social aspect from previous years? Talking to people during a streak, finding out who you can rely on to watch your back etc? That's the fun part for me. I don't see this as an either-or, it should be possible to fix the syncing issue without screwing the whole format over. But if I had to choose between facing syncers every now and then and this tripe we have now I'd go with the syncing.

Quote:

Surely good pvpers must have better ways of gaining Balth. faction and if you don't have a PvE character who can grind ToT bags faster than CBs

I have 13 mill balth faction(I think) and I have no interest in getting more. I don't give a shit about tot bags either. To preempt your question: yes, you can have them.

Quote:

The only answer that makes sense is that you're a title hoarder who wants another title to contribute to his GWAMM and doesn't want to have to pay through the nose for one of the others, which would also explain why you seem to be having so much trouble winnning without a big advantage like syncing or waiting for a team that can carry you.

GWAMM? Who is that? I already have the skillz title(what rank am I? 6? 7? Actually I have no idea and I don't care either.) Once again, I have no problem winning this year's CB. My problem turned out to be it became incredibly boring incredibly fast. I found myself going 1v2 knowing I would die just to see how many arrows I could dodge, how many rupts I could land and how many of theirs I could fake. Not caring about winning the matches anymore. That's called frustration and it happens when there is no longer any incentive to win or play well.

Firebaall · Oct 23, 2010, 12:01 AM // 00:01

C + space
V + space

All you need. :P

Feathermoore Rep · Oct 23, 2010, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lortext

Costume battles were not designed as a serious format for competitive play. It's essentially a casual seasonal pvp format. If it was a format that involved premade organized teams or kept skill tracking metrics (ELO, truskill, etc) then we could try to have a serious talk about how Costume battle is competitive.

The system does not intentionally pit your randomly decent team against other randomly decent teams or sync teams of the same skill level.

I see a lot of people bashing "PvE" players in these threads. When someone steps into RA, Costume Ball, or Dragon Arena they're playing a PvP game type. This makes them PvP players just like you even if they don't take it as seriously as you do. They are a part of your community.

So because RA doesn't pre-organize teams or have a skill tracking method its not competitive???

Logic is flawed sir.

Just because something isn't designed for competitive gameplay, doesn't mean it can't be. I played the first level of Sonic 4 on xbox360 the other day with my friend for four hours trying to break 50second mark for completion time. Thats clearly not a competitive game and we played it like one.

Thats where game designers are supposed to update their game to make changes. Here they basically just said we don't want you to play this competitively outside of ATs. Thank you, have a nice day.

I realize theres a lack of support for GW1, but if you have enough time to code randomization of teams after EVERY match. You can come up with a better solution to syncing. I'd rather have double loading screens than this random crap.

If districts are that big of a factor in syncing, make everyone load into a single international waiting area thats devoid of districts. Then randomize the teams and load into the match.

Its clunky but it solves syncing. If thats what it takes, sacrificing game fluidity for no syncing. I'll take it.

Lanier · Oct 23, 2010, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellix Cantero

Is the crying this bad within the actual matches or just on the forums?

This is guild wars guru, remember? Most of what happens in this section of the forum is whining.

In game, iv not encountered anyone whining.

Lortext · Oct 23, 2010, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feathermoore Rep

So because RA doesn't pre-organize teams or have a skill tracking method its not competitive???

Logic is flawed sir.

Just because something isn't designed for competitive gameplay, doesn't mean it can't be. I played the first level of Sonic 4 on xbox360 the other day with my friend for four hours trying to break 50second mark for completion time. Thats clearly not a competitive game and we played it like one.

Were you competing with your friend or against a goal that you set for yourself? If you were trying to see who could break 50 seconds and you and your friend were both similarly skilled at Sonic games then you could say that this is a fair challenge.

The problem with this example is that you were not trying to do a challenge in Sonic 4 with random teams where the pool of random players were of various levels of skill. There are a lot of things not designed with the intent of competitive game play but people design methods of matching people of similar skill level in order to create an honest competitive environment.

I don't agree that randomizing teams after every game is a great solution to syncing although it is trivial to implement something like this compared to designing a matchmaking system that works.

Lortext · Oct 23, 2010, 12:57 AM // 00:57

I'm all for getting to know your team if it matched the team you are on with other similarly skilled teams. I even think that it would be awesome if you could keep playing with your team even when you lost if you choose to (i.e Halo). This doesn't happen.

There is no strategy in getting skilled/decent players to randomly be assigned to your team.

Thevil King · Oct 23, 2010, 12:57 AM // 00:57

yea, its kind sad that most of these discussions degenerate into a pvp vs pve quarrel. some people just like to bring in irrelevant stuff so they can give the impression of saying something substantial.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 23, 2010, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Note I say PvP'ers because a large part of the PvE community venturing in PvP don't care about fun, they mostly care about rewards. On top of that, due to their lack of PvP experience, most of them wouldn't even understand what is fun and whatnot. (Similar to how peope in the 80's concidered Space Invaders etc fun.)

I have a high rank in the gamer title but I have to say is gamer even a considered a pvp title after seeing how its not counted as one for the HoM?

Star_Jewel · Oct 23, 2010, 01:31 AM // 01:31

I think I read 2-3 posts in this thread. Don't really have anything to say in reply to any statements made, but....

This is my first year doing CB, so I have nothing to compare it to. At first the total randomness was a draw -- yay, no syncers! -- but as I get to understand the game better and try to devise strategies, the shuffling does get a little frustrating. There's no doubt that I could probably benefit personally from getting on a good team and playing several maps with them to learn some valuable lessons.

That said, pure randomness every round seems like the only fair way to play. Not just because of syncing, but also because it's just not fair for a ragtag team who may just be formed to play against a team that has a streak of consecutive wins and have forged a cohesive playstyle among them. The only solution to that would be to ideally pair one x-streak team against another x-streak team. But that would introduce wait times, and who wants that?

*lemming* · Oct 23, 2010, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Cut the sanctimonious finger-pointing.